Facts and Fallacies
I received a comment today about the story on Barack Obama's support of infanticide, by a commenter named Cynthia- and I'm going to try to respond point by point. If any of you are interested to help respond to Cynthia, you can in the comments below or within the previous topic- please try to remain as respectful as possible, if you do- though I know it is difficult in such a sensitive issue.
More on page 2.
Cynthia, first, thank you for your comments. I hope that you will take the time to read my responses and try to understand my point of view here. I would rather this didn't turn into a long debate, but you are welcome to respond again to anything I say, if you feel inclined.
(I have included your comments in italics and color, and my responses are in black.)
Cynthia wrote:
"It's an interesting story. I am very pro-choice, but I feel horrible about infants being allowed to live and then die alone. It's terrible. However, if Obama not supporting the BAIPA act means that Roe vs Wade is strengthened, then I am in favor of his stance.
Cynthia, the first statements I appreciated, because what Obama supported indeed was heinous.
But you contradicted yourself within that same paragraph, by implying that it was somehow morally acceptable to support infanticide as long as Roe vs Wade is strengthened by it. Do you really believe this is right?
Is this the logical extension of "pro-choice", in your opinion? Support of infanticide? I think it should bother you that you are so easily led to support something that you in your own words called a "terrible" thing.
The child is not even connected to the mother at this point, so the only reason to withhold life saving measures from the child is a willful intent to murder the child. Not to help the mother, not to protect her from harm, just to kill the child.
These children who has been born and survived have rights under the constitution (14th amendment). These children were being killed illegally. The BIAPA was there to codify existing law to ensure that these babies were protected. Why do you think that Obama had the right to try to deny these children the life saving measures they deserve?
Also, there is no explanation for how Roe vs. Wade would possibly be strengthened by babies being left to die. Maybe you can help explain how it would be strengthened, by allowing surviving babies, separate from their mother, to die (since there is obviously no "my body, my choice" argument to fall back on)?
And what may come of the fetuses aborted or left to die? Sure, some may grow up to be adults, but how many of them will be productive How much will they cost the government to support a.k.a. how much will they really cost the taxpayers? Who will take care of them? It is such a complicated and sensitive issue.
I think it is terribly sad that people are still falling for these Eugenist ideals; that human beings are only worth living if they are "productive" (what does that mean, exactly? Productive to whom?), that human life has a cost (remember the old line from Nazi Germany, "This person suffering from hereditary defects costs the community 60,000 Reichsmark during his lifetime. Fellow Germans, that is your money, too." Yes, they used this very excuse to kill handicapped people, the mentally ill, etc. All in the name of 'saving money' for fellow Germans.)
Something is very wrong with an America who decides who gets to live or die based on "how much money they will cost" or "what can they do for me?".
As for "who will take care of them"... Do you realize that over one and a half million American families fdesperately want to adopt and are not able to because of the scarcity of babies available for adoption? Not just "normal" babies are wanted either. There are actually lists of hundreds of couples waiting to adopt babies with spina bifida and Down's syndrome. (I am actually friends with one sweet lady who wants to adopt a baby with Down's Syndrome. I hope she is able to one day.)
In fact, the problem with finding babies to adopt has gotten so bad, that there is a black market developing, where babies are being sold for up to $35,000 dollars!
The idea that there is no one to take care of them is simply untrue.
I ultimately think that women should always have the right to choose. ALWAYS. If men were the ones who could become pregnant, you better believe that everything regarding their bodies would be a choice.
This argument is moot, as men can't get pregnant... not to mention it has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of babies being born alive, and left to die. Please do not try to confuse the two issues.
I guess I don't understand - most conservative people support abstinence only education, no birth control, then no abortion, then no welfare. That doesn't work at all. If we worked harder to teach realistic sex-education policies and made birth control available to all, I truly think we would see lower numbers of abortion and also less low income mothers on welfare milking our government.
Not a single one of these arguments deals with the BAIPA. We are talking about born babies, not babies being killed through abortion.
I am absolutely pro-choice, but I do feel terrible about the hypothetical baby that would die after being born. However, when women can always choose what to do with their bodies, I think you would see more support for policies such as BAIPA, as long as the mother would have options, such as adoption.
I am not sure how you are connecting abortion and the BAIPA. It has nothing to do with abortion. Once the baby is born, there is no woman connected to the baby, and there is no reason that you could possibly use to justify willfully leaving the surviving child to die.
By the way, there was overwhelming support for the federal version of the BAIPA, including from Hilary Clinton, and Ted Kennedy. Even the National Abortion Rights Action League (N.A.R.A.L) was neutral on the issue. Obama was stood against the grain in supporting the deaths of these born alive infants.
I know that most of the readers of your blog are anti-Obama (I love him), and that's okay, but do any of you really think that any abortion policies are going to change under him?
Obama has stated that the first thing he'd do as president is to sign the Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA), which would lift all bans and restrictions on abortion. So much for safe, legal, and "rare"? So, yes, I'd say that abortion policies could very well change under him, and for the worst.
More on page 2.
Cynthia, first, thank you for your comments. I hope that you will take the time to read my responses and try to understand my point of view here. I would rather this didn't turn into a long debate, but you are welcome to respond again to anything I say, if you feel inclined.
(I have included your comments in italics and color, and my responses are in black.)
Cynthia wrote:
"It's an interesting story. I am very pro-choice, but I feel horrible about infants being allowed to live and then die alone. It's terrible. However, if Obama not supporting the BAIPA act means that Roe vs Wade is strengthened, then I am in favor of his stance.
Cynthia, the first statements I appreciated, because what Obama supported indeed was heinous.
But you contradicted yourself within that same paragraph, by implying that it was somehow morally acceptable to support infanticide as long as Roe vs Wade is strengthened by it. Do you really believe this is right?
Is this the logical extension of "pro-choice", in your opinion? Support of infanticide? I think it should bother you that you are so easily led to support something that you in your own words called a "terrible" thing.
The child is not even connected to the mother at this point, so the only reason to withhold life saving measures from the child is a willful intent to murder the child. Not to help the mother, not to protect her from harm, just to kill the child.
These children who has been born and survived have rights under the constitution (14th amendment). These children were being killed illegally. The BIAPA was there to codify existing law to ensure that these babies were protected. Why do you think that Obama had the right to try to deny these children the life saving measures they deserve?
Also, there is no explanation for how Roe vs. Wade would possibly be strengthened by babies being left to die. Maybe you can help explain how it would be strengthened, by allowing surviving babies, separate from their mother, to die (since there is obviously no "my body, my choice" argument to fall back on)?
And what may come of the fetuses aborted or left to die? Sure, some may grow up to be adults, but how many of them will be productive How much will they cost the government to support a.k.a. how much will they really cost the taxpayers? Who will take care of them? It is such a complicated and sensitive issue.
I think it is terribly sad that people are still falling for these Eugenist ideals; that human beings are only worth living if they are "productive" (what does that mean, exactly? Productive to whom?), that human life has a cost (remember the old line from Nazi Germany, "This person suffering from hereditary defects costs the community 60,000 Reichsmark during his lifetime. Fellow Germans, that is your money, too." Yes, they used this very excuse to kill handicapped people, the mentally ill, etc. All in the name of 'saving money' for fellow Germans.)
Something is very wrong with an America who decides who gets to live or die based on "how much money they will cost" or "what can they do for me?".
As for "who will take care of them"... Do you realize that over one and a half million American families fdesperately want to adopt and are not able to because of the scarcity of babies available for adoption? Not just "normal" babies are wanted either. There are actually lists of hundreds of couples waiting to adopt babies with spina bifida and Down's syndrome. (I am actually friends with one sweet lady who wants to adopt a baby with Down's Syndrome. I hope she is able to one day.)
In fact, the problem with finding babies to adopt has gotten so bad, that there is a black market developing, where babies are being sold for up to $35,000 dollars!
The idea that there is no one to take care of them is simply untrue.
I ultimately think that women should always have the right to choose. ALWAYS. If men were the ones who could become pregnant, you better believe that everything regarding their bodies would be a choice.
This argument is moot, as men can't get pregnant... not to mention it has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of babies being born alive, and left to die. Please do not try to confuse the two issues.
I guess I don't understand - most conservative people support abstinence only education, no birth control, then no abortion, then no welfare. That doesn't work at all. If we worked harder to teach realistic sex-education policies and made birth control available to all, I truly think we would see lower numbers of abortion and also less low income mothers on welfare milking our government.
Not a single one of these arguments deals with the BAIPA. We are talking about born babies, not babies being killed through abortion.
I am absolutely pro-choice, but I do feel terrible about the hypothetical baby that would die after being born. However, when women can always choose what to do with their bodies, I think you would see more support for policies such as BAIPA, as long as the mother would have options, such as adoption.
I am not sure how you are connecting abortion and the BAIPA. It has nothing to do with abortion. Once the baby is born, there is no woman connected to the baby, and there is no reason that you could possibly use to justify willfully leaving the surviving child to die.
By the way, there was overwhelming support for the federal version of the BAIPA, including from Hilary Clinton, and Ted Kennedy. Even the National Abortion Rights Action League (N.A.R.A.L) was neutral on the issue. Obama was stood against the grain in supporting the deaths of these born alive infants.
I know that most of the readers of your blog are anti-Obama (I love him), and that's okay, but do any of you really think that any abortion policies are going to change under him?
Obama has stated that the first thing he'd do as president is to sign the Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA), which would lift all bans and restrictions on abortion. So much for safe, legal, and "rare"? So, yes, I'd say that abortion policies could very well change under him, and for the worst.
Well Bethany, I knew we wouldn't all agree with you, and each person is allowed their own opinion. But for the life of me, I cannot figure out why anyone would consider the murder of an unborn/partially born baby okay. Whether a baby is aborted at a few weeks, or partway throughout a pregnancy doesn't make it okay, in my opinion.
Cynthia, I found a website last night as I was researching this topic in regards to Canada. I don't remember the URL, but if you're interested, I can find it and send it to you. There was a video (very graphic) that educates people what the fetus/baby looks like after an abortion.
Why the video? Because there are so many people who thinks it's okay, but it's easy to see the Disney version of something in your mind, but a totally different thing when you see the actual evidence.
You know what would help curb all the abortions and mothers on welfare?
1. Prayer back in the schools...we were much better WITH it than without it. History can prove that.
2. Teaching kids about abstinence...from their parents, not the schools. Why do people think it's okay to let the school teach their kids sex education?
3. Make abortions illegal.
But those 3 points are all a whole other debate and this isn't my blog, so I'll stop there.
One more thing...have you ever lost a child to miscarriage, etc.? I have. Earlier this year I had a miscarriage at 5 weeks, yet regardless of what some people think, that was a human life, a baby, a person. I went through weeks of agony, first during the miscarriage when I didn't know what was going to happen, and then during the weeks after as I had to mourn my loss while still living my daily life. You see, when you lose a baby that early on, not everyone understands. The only ones who truly understand are those that have gone through it before, while others seem to think that because it wasn't a "baby" yet it's no big deal. And they'll tell you that you can always have more.
So knowing that thousands of women have miscarriages because it's their "choice" is a real slap in the face. I didn't get a choice...I lost my baby even though I would have done anything if I could have kept it.
Sorry to "hog" your blog Bethany, but I felt I needed to respond. If Cynthia wants to talk to me further (debate, etc.) you have permission to give her my e-mail address.
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Julie,
I am very sincerely sorry for your loss. My mother and father had a miscarriage the first time they got pregnant, and I know it was hard. The advice from their obgyn: "Have another!" I was the next child born. My aunt also had two miscarriages, and that was also tragic. I have never lost a child or a pregnancy, so I cannot presume to understand the sadness you have gone through, but I am sorry.
I am familiar with partial-birth abortion, as it was a topic I studied and wrote a thesis about several years ago. It's terrible. I've read the books and I've seen the videos. I never ever want to have an abortion. I never want to be in that position, and I don't plan to be.
However, I can not speak for all women. I do feel that a woman should have complete ownership of her body, whether there is something growing inside her womb or not (you say baby, I say fetus - we could argue all day about definitions, which is one of the major differences). But at the end of the day, I truly feel the woman should be able to choose whether she carries her pregnancy through or not. Her body, her choice. I don't feel that this is a slap in the face to others because it is a choice. My mother chose to have her first baby and she lost it. It was her choice. My friend had an abortion. It was her choice, not a slap in the face of my mother. But I mean no disrespect - there just isn't solid correlation between one woman's pregnancy to another.
I know this is another hot topic, but I am of the opinion that abstinence-only education doesn't work. And there are many studies that show this. Young adults, Christian or not, are interested in sex. Always have been, always will be. It's natural. And I think it is always a good idea that parents would teach their children about sex, but they usually don't. Since it is an educational health issue, the schools can teach it to our children, if the parents so choose. There are not enough active parents to teach their children about sex. It's just never going to happen. It's an idealistic but unrealistic dream. Just let the schools take care of it. And you can education your children however you wish. It's choice.
Regarding prayer, I don't believe it should be in school. It's just more time we lose in productivity during the day. If you want prayer in school, home school or send your kids to Christian schools. We have separation of church and state, and though I am a person of faith, I do not need to force everyone else's children to pray as mine would. As for the comment of "history can prove that", you can't prove that any sort of moral decline is directly related to the removal of prayer from schools. It's a false correlation.
If we outlaw abortion, we're going to start losing adult women to back-alley illegal abortions with coat hangers. I challenge you to watch "Vera Drake". It opened my eyes
I thank you for your frank response. I mean no disrespect, only honest discussion.
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A few corrections: My mom chose to have a baby, not to lose it. It obviously wasn't her choice to lose it - I worded that poorly in my first post.
Also, you can educate your children however you wish, not education. It's late and I should have proofread better
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Cynthia,
When you say that you are a woman of faith yourself how can you ever be against prayer in schools? Did you ever start your day off with prayer and saw the difference in the day? We don't lose anything...we gain something!! God gives us productivity. He blesses the works of our hands and we can feel His presence throughout the day.
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Cynthia, there are absolutely no documented cases of women dying from back alley abortions by coat hangers.
Virtually all illegal abortions were performed by doctors.
Another note, you cannot possibly know the statistics on illegal abortions, because by virtue of the fact that they are illegal, they are not reported. Any figures about illegal abortions are made up or estimated.
Bernard Nathanson, who was the abortionist who was personally responsible for over 75,000 abortions, and he founded NARAL, admitted that he made those figures up about illegal abortions. Please read this quote:
"We persuaded the media that the cause of permissive abortion was a liberal enlightened, sophisticated one. Knowing that if a true poll were taken, we would be soundly defeated, we simply fabricated the results of fictional polls. We announced to the media that we had taken polls and that 60% of Americans were in favour of permissive abortion. This is the tactic of the self-fulfilling lie. Few people care to be in the minority.
We aroused enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie often enough convinces the public.
The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around 200-250 annually. The figure we constantly fed to the media was 10,000. These false figures took root in the consciousness of Americans convincing many that we needed to crack the abortion law. Another myth we fed to the public through the media was that
legalising abortion would only mean that the abortions taking place illegally would then be done legally. In fact, of course, abortion is now being used as a primary method of
birth control in the U.S. and the annual number of abortions has increased by 1500% since legalisation. "
************
Also, I would still like to hear your opinion on Born Alive, now that you know it has nothing to do with abortion at all.
Once the baby is out, what justification can anyone possibly give to kill the baby?
It's not only morally wrong- it's also illegal. And Obama still supports it.
How can anyone vote for this man in the light of this topic?
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Thank you for your comments, Julie.
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Bethany.... this is very disturbing and I also have read the previous post and it all saddens me a great deal... now that John and I are considering adoption in a couple of years it breaks my heart to see people killing babies all the time it is awful and in no way do I support abortion at all... it is wrong it is murder no matter how you look at it... it states in the Bible that thou shalt not kill and that is the bottom line I would hate to face the result of killing a precious baby on judgement day if one did not repent.... it is scary... but one thing that I have found comfort in lately is that God already knows what will happen including this election coming up... and everything is His plan... the only thing these leaders are doing is letting God's plan be played out and yes that might sound weird but it might very likely mean we are approaching the end of times... things seem to be getting worse all around us... but all the leaders have power of doing is what God has already planned... I am not saying he wants babies to die but the world will get to a point of diaster and then His son will return... so it brings me so much comfort to know that God is in control and everything will happen the way He wants it to happen.... rather we vote or not the leader He has planned will be in control....I hope you know what I am getting at.....
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I love you, Sara. (hugs) And I definitely get what you're getting at.
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And one more thing.... I agree with the above post has this lady ever lost of child???? I too experiecned a miscarriage and it was horrible...and to see people miscarry on purpose it tears me apart literally....!!!
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Bethany I want to thank you for this post...I am and have always been pro-choice...I believe that a woman has a right to choose what she does with her body...
Because of my beliefs I tend to have a rather broad acceptance of abortion practices...until this...
This video really made me stop and think about what I really feel...not just what the PC/Feminist me should think...
I do believe that a woman should have access to the morning after pills...I believe that she should have access to early 1st trimester abortions...but once that short window of time has passed...it stops being something she is doing to HER body and starts being something she's doing to someone elses body.
I know that those who are pro-life will not agree with me about the early term abortions and will argue that it's already a life...etc... From a scientific standpoint I disagree and that's okay...we can disagree...I just wanted you to know that your post really opened my eyes and made me think!
Thanks ~Laurie
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I am so thankful to hear that you have taken a second look at what Obama is supporting. Thank you for your encouraging comments...I really appreciate it.
We definitely disagree about abortion- from a scientific standpoint, I know that an unborn child is a human being from the moment of conception - but I still appreciate the fact that you have seen this issue and been open minded enough to see that it is wrong.
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Cynthia wrote,
"If we worked harder to teach realistic sex-education policies and made birth control available to all..."
I haven't been educated about sex from the public "system" (schools, Planned Parenthood, etc.) so I would be very interested in hearing what they are teaching that is unrealistic about birth control.
Also, I thought that birth control was available to all. Women who don't make enough money to afford it would qualify for government assistance for medical needs, right? Unfortunately, women can frequently afford things like cable, brand new clothes, or cigarettes while still being too poor to buy birth control or even prenatal vitamins. I have a hard time feeling sympathy for a person when I've seen this in their lifestyle...
Cynthia writes,
"...I do feel terrible about the hypothetical baby that would die after being born."
We are not talking about a hypothetical occurrence.
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Tammy, thank you for clarifying that it is not a hypothetical.
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yes, all women have the right the birth control (i don't agree with it, but..)
I used to take the pill, then the patch, then I learned what it really does..
all i ever had to do was walk into a health unit, and get a free exam, then they would hand me a 6 mo supply. it is that easy.
It is becoming more acceptable for younger females nowadays. You know, I think the way my parents taught me must have been different. I am a conservative, but I was not raised that way.
I was told about the birds and the bees in junior high and my parents told me I would have certain feelings. they told me that it was nothing to be ashamed of. They told me that everyone know when they are ready, and for me not to rush things. all I had to do was tell them I was ready, and then we could take all the proper precautions- i would not get into trouble over doing something alot of people did and hid. I could do it responsibly. But, believe me, they told me that they wanted me to be abstinent as long as i could be and that i should try to stay that way until i am married. Alot of other girls were very promiscuous at my schools, and i think my parents teaching really made it not be a rebellion issue. I was never tempted. I went through the worth the wait program and rallied for abstinence. I still believe it does work. I had my first kiss at 16, when other girls were out getting their rock off in the backseat of a car. I went through college and never touched a man. I was lucky enough to wait until I was an adult. I wish other children had parents that would get involved instead of letting others do their jobs.
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In response to Laurie... you said "I believe that a woman has a right to choose what she does with her body..." I don't understand this comment. I also believe that a woman has a right to choose what she does with her body... but not when it comes to abortion. If a woman wants to choose to have an abortion - then she obviously made some really poor choices in the first place. The choice to have sex with her body - knowing the consequence or reaction could result in having a baby!
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Estee, Amy, thank you for your comments.
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You took the words right out of my mouth. There are those of us who so easily forget about the possible consequences of our actions because we are too "in the moment".
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Bethany, thank you for posting all of this! And I wholeheartedly agree with your response...and all I can say is GOD HAVE MERCY ON US!
God bless and I really enjoy your blog!
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I think if we treat abortion as a religious issue then some people are going to get frustrated and angry and yada yada. I think it should be more of a moral issue. Is it morally right or wrong to abort? For me??? It is morally wrong.
Pray in schools... only if it is before school or after school. But not during. There are to many religions out there to put all the focus on one.
As far as teaching sex ed in school. Yes this should be done. But parents should be allowed to opt their kid out of the lessons if they so choose. While I think this should ultimately be up to the parents to teach their children about sex ed, it just isn't happening.
I don't think abortion is a the top Obama's list, nor do I think its at the top of Mccains.
Well I am sleepy... so I believe I better hit the sack. ciao!
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JM, thanks for your comments. I was grateful to hear that you feel do feel abortion is morally wrong. I actually thought you had a different stance on this issue, so I don't know if something has changed or if this was always your position and I just missed it- whatever the case, that part of your comment made my day. Thank you!
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Then what about Muslims where schools are building special bathrooms so they can wash their feet and building special prayer rooms? Jewish people have mandated prayer times through the day are they allowed private, special prayer rooms? Even the Christian atletics Assoc. is being banned from schools in favor of having PFLAG and other such groups. The schools and government are promoting a world religion......an anti-Christian one.
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Sara these are private schools. They can do whatever they please. Just like Catholic and christian schools do have prayer. I'm not saying prayer should not be allowed in public schools but I am saying it should be before or after school. Just like my PUBLIC high school did.
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No these are not private schools, these are public schools. It is happening all over the U.S. I am glad that when I was in middle school one of my teachers who was a Christian (she has since passed away) allowed us to pray and even read our Bibles, unfortunately I would probably be in detention, expelled or something should. What about the public school teacher throwing away a student's Bible, yes it's the public school. One reason why homeschooling is the best choice for Christians today, even private Christian schools aren't the same.
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Okay... I think prayer in schools is okay, as long as its not forced. If individuals have the choice to opt out then I think prayer in schools may work. But we need to allow Muslims to pray and Buddhist to mediate too. etc
Teacher throwing away a bible? Now that is just wrong. I agree with you on that one.
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To Diane,
I'm grateful we were able to come to an agreement through email. Thank you and have a good night.
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Hi I come from the sex ed classes of the 80's and yes even back then they taught to use protection and not anything about not doing it in the first place!! My parents after me going through the class wished they would have opted me out of the classes. Yes I bucked my parents and did what the teacher said was fine... Hey she is a teacher she's smart and knows way more than my parents because she is educated and my parents are "just old fashion and don't understand"!!! But I tell you I so wished now that I would have listen to my parents!! I have a much younger sister and let me tell you I told her the hard tale story of what I went through and told her please not to follow my path! Thankfully she didn't!
It really amazes me how people can not see how our country has went down hill, you can't take morels away from people and expect our country to bloom. It's very scary when I think about what my younger children will go through, my older have had it even harder than my husband and I have with peer pressure.
Thankfully God opened my eyes very wide to see how I was living was very wrong. I turned my life around but not before having my heart scared for life...not being able to give my husband something wonderful and special between us..my virginity. I can only pray God opens up teenagers eyes to see this is no lifestyle to live and it will follow you through your whole life.
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Hi Bethany, very well (and calmly) said. It always amazes me those who are pro-abortion (pro-choice whatever they want to call themselves to make them feel better) have all these 'arguments' but they can't be backed up. As a mom who lost her first baby to a miscarriage at 7 1/2 weeks (while being pro-abortion) I know the sense of loss (hence the reason I am now staunchly pro-life - I knew it was a baby in there not a 'fetus') and still mourn for my first child. My ob/gyn's advice "it's dead, have a d&c and have more!" not what a grieving mom and dad want to hear. No one really recognized out loss as they would have had our baby been born then died. I regret my decision to have the D&C everyday but it was not my choice to have a miscarriage, but I am so glad that that baby changed my mind in regards to life and eventually rededicated myself to Christ! It is a sad time when people feel it is okay to kill a baby wether it's inside the womb (where it used to be considered a protected environment) or after being born! I wonder which we will be Sodom or Gomorah? I know I spelled them wrong.
Anyway as for the seperation of church and state, I so tire of hearing this mundane and ill quoted response for the reason why the One True God was removed from public schools. Our founding fathers were Christian, and the whole seperation thing was just to ensure there was no one state endorsed religion. Hmmmm wonder if it will be okay when Obama offically endorses Islam as the one true religion? Since public schools were Christian and taught from the Bible as their main text and the other text being written from the Bible (McGuffey readers anyone?) one cannot possibly argue that schools need seperated from religion. The schools were much better off, at least parents didn't have to worry if their children would be shot dead in the schools, or molested by teachers, etc.
I am glad I live in a Nation that allows us to homeschool (will it still be the same with Obama in office, hopefully we will never know) so that my children can learn about Christ, His Salvation, about marriage being between a man and a woman, Creationism, praying and of course they stay alive.
Unfortunately, the Emergent church teaches there is more than one way to God and that Christianity is not the only true religion and so we have Christians who are fine with letting their children be taught different religions, same s** marriages are okay, prayers are left out of schools, all in the name of not judging or following the Bible.
Sorry Bethany I didn't want to hijack your blog but I get tired of 'Christians' who are pro-abortion, anti prayer in school, etc. I won't judge anyone's salvation but when you go against God and the basic tenets of the Bible and the faith, where are you left?
God bless,
Sarah
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And why did the founding fathers come to the US? For FREEDOM OF RELIGION. It would be very hypocritical if the United States started to force people to be one religion. Oh and in case you didn't know, Obama is christian. Those emails that went around, telling everyone something different. Were all lies.
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No, it wouldn't be hypocritical for the US to remain Christian. They came to America so they could practice Christianity as found in the Bible, not man made doctrines, which unfortunately many churches in America now do anyway, not for freedom from religion but so that they could be Christian without the Church of England telling them they couldn't practice Christianity of the Bible. Obama belongs to one of the most liberalized Christian churches and even though you were very rude I will respond that joining a church (which again is a man made doctrine) does not make one Christian just like owning a cow doesn't make one a farmer. I know some who join a church, claim they are Christian but their lives reflect differently, which is what Obama is, he himself is a hypocrite. So again joining a church doesn't make one Christian.
As a side note: My opinions are MY OWN and in no way are the ideas or opinions of Bethany or her blog.
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So are you saying anyone who is not christian should leave and go to another country where they can be free to practice the religion they so desire? As you said the founding fathers came to the US to practice Christianity they way they wanted. I think other individuals should be allowed to practice their religion in the way they desire. Much like when I was student teaching and a student was Jehovah (sp?) witness. It was against his religion to say the pledge of allegiance. The school did not make him stay the pledge or salute the flag, but he had to stand when we did the pledge.
I understand your opinion are you own. I think its great that we can all have an adult conversation and debate issues like this. We can learn so much from one another. Thank you Sara for your opinions and ideas.
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No I never said they had to leave the country, but they need to realize that this country was founded on Christian morals and principals. Sure they can practice how they want but why is the Islam religion being promoted and the Christian faith being shoved out. Not Christmas songs, trees, star of David, etc. But it is okay to have seperate praying and washing rooms? I see something very wrong with that. I know Christians who do not pledge their allegiance to the flag, it isn't just JWs or others who don't.
I put that disclaimer for all who read my opinions.
Sarah
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I have to come out of the wood-work on this one! (Bethany, I've been reading your blog for quite awhile and always enjoy it!).
In regards to sex-education in schools, I am a 20 year old college student and am absolutely fed up with the so called "education" fed to high school students. Yes, young people are interested in sex (very interested!
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When I took sex ed courses they did teach about abstinence, and they taught about BC and condoms. I think we need to make sure we teach about sex education at the right age. Back when I was teaching for a short time I heard stories of the 7th grade team having to teach about sex ed. I think this is ridiculous for a lot of reasons. First the age... HELLO 7th grade??? Way to young. Second, they told me after they taught sex ed, they had a lot of pregnancies (this was when they taught it at the start of the year... they decided they better wait till the end of the year) Third, Why is a classroom teacher, who is not trained to teach sex ed.... teaching it. BAD IDEA.
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Hm...I don't think Cynthia has any children her self.
I think that women have a right to choose if the wan't the child or not..but if the don't wan't It, they should not have any thing to say about what happens with the kid.
If it's alive it should be up for adoption.
Come on you wouldn't accept a woman killing her 1 or 2 year old child would you?
When the kid has "left" the mother it has a right to be taken care of.
About Obama...either your pro or against...he is so wrong.
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Hi again Bethany (and others)
God bless,
Sarah
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FYI for anyone interested. Sex ed is now being incorporated as early as 5th and 6th grade and .... and earlier according to this article that describes it as "graphic" material for a 3rd grader. It's on the New York Time's website?
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C06EED6113AF935A35750C0A962958260
.... I stumbled across an article that says Obama supports sex ed for ALL GRADES. And at least elements of it for kindergartners.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/77496.php
I know this isn't what this topic started off as, I just think the people that are talking about sex ed should look into it a bit more and know what's going on....
I can't really take part in the rest of it as it's highly upsetting to me... I've miscarried before and I'm pregnant at the moment and too emotional. I just sob.
~Blessings, Bethany!~
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Hi Bethany,
I first want to say that your response was worded VERY well and I can't think of anything to add! I also look forward to seeing Cynthia's response in regards to killing a baby that is no longer part of its mother.
*Please note, my use of CAPs is for emphasis, not yelling *smile*
Since the comments took several different directions, I would also like to comment on the comments - lol.
First, I don't think that prayer should be in public schools. It is not the job of the school to teach our children religion. It is not even the job of the church, it is the job of the PARENTS. Prayer in school will not change things BUT prayer in homes WILL totally turn our country right-side up! A change needs to take place in the home before it can be spread to public institutions. (And I don’t think that Christian children should be in public schools… and most private schools are filled with those who have been expelled from public schools, so they aren’t much better). I think that prayer should be *allowed*.If it were "taught", then what if the kids had to pray to Budda or some other false god?
Next, in regards to a woman having a right to choose: I believe that she made the decision to either say "yes" or "no" to sex. Once a living being has been created, then why should we think it is okay to "play God" to decide if that being should live or die? I believe that the choice comes BEFORE conception.
As for sex ed in schools, I again don’t think that this is the school's job. It is the parent’s job. Most parents left this up to the schools and our teen pregnancy rates just soar. I don’t think this is as much about the issue of abstinence vs. contraception education as it is about changing the hearts of these students. Our children must understand WHY it is wrong to fornicate and then have these values instilled in them daily. Again, that is the only way that we can change the future of our country. (And for the record, abstinence is 100% effective at preventing a pregnancy *smile*)
I also think that most of those who support abortion normally overlook the fact that the "life of the mother" is deeply affected (even years) after an abortion. I have a df who had an abortion many years ago, and she still mourns the loss of her baby... even more so since it was "her choice". I cannot even begin to imagine the torment I would have if I had been responsible for the death of my precious baby. It is a shame that after she relizes her mistake, it is too late and she will have to live with these consequences the rest of her life.
*sorry I was so long winded... but thanks for letting me post :o)
Bethany, THANK YOU so much for your blog! I am always so encouraged by your posts and the reflection of Christ that you are to the world!
Lord Bless, Dana
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I like everything in your post except when you said "budda and other false gods" You really need to be careful here. Whatever religion they may be they feel their God is a true God. Think of how it would feel if someone told you your God was a "false god"
Great post otherwise though. You have a lot of great ideas and insights!
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JM, I am glad that you agree with most of my points and I thank you for your kind words. I must, however, state that I wouldn’t be a Christian if I didn’t truly believe that there is only one true God. He is manifest into three persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
If you are not a true Christian, then I must warn you to be careful. If your heart is not right (meaning you have not accepted the free gift of Salvation in Jesus Christ), then you will not be spending your eternity in Heaven, and the only other option is Hell. I know it may sound harsh, but it is true. Man is sinful and because God is a holy, true and just God, He cannot allow sin into Heaven. This is why He sent Christ - to bear our sins for us, so that we if accept that gift, our sins are forgiven, and we are pure through the righteousness (and blood) of Christ and we can then enter into Heaven.
If you believe that you are a Christian, then I would encourage you to read your Bible. Read it from cover to cover. You will see that the "other gods" are false and a Christian cannot claim otherwise.
Also, you asked how I would feel if someone told me that my God was a false god... My heart would be burdened for them. I would pray that the Lord would open their eyes and allow them to see the Truth :o)
I also hope that no one took my post to mean that I am stand-offish in my faith. I fully believe that we need to be out in the world and making a positive impact for Christ. The point of what I posted last night is that before our country can be changed to glorify the Lord, we must first make the change in our homes. If the next generation is trained to love the Lord and they desire to honor and obey Him, then it will be reflected by the “law of the land.”
I would be totally ecstatic if we would see all of the abortion clinics closed down and the heinous murder of those without a voice was ended! I am praying for that day, and I am also working to get elected officials into office that share my worldview. As Christians, we need to be active in making a difference in the world and in our country, but we also must make sure that we pass our beliefs to our children if we want a make a lasting change both in our family and in the world.
Lord Bless, Dana
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i have to agree w/JM here, and disagree w/Dana.
God is God. God is the God of the isalms, the jews etc. I can't say who they worship is a false God.
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Dana, JM, and Tia, here is a link which might help explain the differences between the Christian God, and those of the Jewish and Islamic faith. I hope that this will be helpful!
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/670-islam-christians-same-god
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oops, that link didn't work, did it? Here it is again...hopefully it'll work this time.
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/670-islam-christians-same-god.htm
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Bethany,
I don't want to join in on this debate per say, but I do want to chime in on your fried waiting to adopt a baby with Downs. Go through your state register of Foster Children waiting to be adopted. Each week in the US, 52,000 children end up in foster care due to abuse and/or neglect. Most of them end up "aging out" of the system because they aren't adopted. There are PLENTY of children who need loving families...there is no lack of children who need parents.
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I agree with you that there are many children in foster care. The only problem with that is that many of these foster children are not actually available for adoption, just temporary care - Plus, there are many requirements that must be met for adoption, that not every family can meet.
(For instance, I know of several people who have been turned down for adopting just because they are a homeschooling family, or one couple who was turned down because the woman's mother had a history of severe depression. Not the woman herself, but her mother. And the list goes on).
It is so difficult to adopt children in the US, that many people are deciding to adopt out of country. This is starting to become common practice.
Anyway, thank you for your comments, Dana!
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Bethany, thank you for writing more! I agree with everything you wrote, and I find Obama's position on the BAIPA repugnant.
Here's another fallacy--the idea the our poor young people have no clue that sex results in babies (and spreads disease!), or how to access birth control. That is such nonsense. "Safe sex" talk has been in the air since the 80's, condoms are in every drugstore and many public restrooms and Planned Parenthood actively lures young people with "novelty" condoms, free pregnancy tests, and birth control pills. I do not believe for one second that America's young people are so stupid that in the midst of this storm of information and birth control access they still don't have a clue. Give me a break!
It is *so* silly when people say that access to birth control is restricted. Just silly.
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I agree with you completely, Margaret! Check out THIS article:
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/08/ratio_of_births.html
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Hi,
I'm from Europe and came here by accident while searching for articles about the legality of abortion in the US (I was shocked to find that it's allowed almost without any restrictions).
Bethany's arguments are very convincing and rational. That's the way you will convince people, no matter if they're religious or not, that abortion is morally wrong. Great job!
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By the way, do you know if many Americans are aware about the abortion situation in Europe? The situation is quite different (the law for example). In Ireland, Poland and Malta, abortion is illegal.
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Most pro-choicers think that no woman ever uses abortion as birth control. That's wrong. Take Russia for example, a country were contraception and condoms are widely available and where abortion outnumber live births by 3 to 1. Frightening.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3093152.stm
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/russia/ab-rusreg2.html
Btw, this website(http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/index.html) is very good, and full of statistics of the number of abortions and abortion rates in various countries and US states. Check it out!
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Thank you for the comments and resources , DNB!
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