Christians Drinking Wine - Answer to a Question
I got a comment today that I wanted to respond to here, in case others here are wondering about this issue and just were afraid to speak up.
"Hello, Bethany. I'm new to your blog, and I really enjoyed looking at all the things you're making here! I also enjoy preserving. Good going for your first attempt!!!! I do have a question, though...you mentioned you are making wine. Have you read these verses?
~ Prov. 20:1 ~ "WINE is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
~ PROV. 21:17 "He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth WINE and oil shall not be rich."
~ PROV. 23:30 ~ "They that tarry long at the WINE; they that go to seek mixed WINE."
~ Prov. 23:31 ~ "Look not thou upon the WINE when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright."
~ PROVERBS 31:4 "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink WINE; nor for princes strong drink:"
I know there are other verses referring favorably to wine - Jesus even created wine for the wedding. But God cannot contradict Himself. If you read the original Hebrew and Greek, you will see that there are two different words for wine; wine that refers to strong drink, and wine that refers to anything made with grapes. Grape juice is accepted and even encouraged in the Bible. Strong drink is not. I don't mean to sound annoying or rude. I just see that you very clearly claim to be a believer and love the Lord. I believe you. That is why it puzzles me that you should promote something that is so clearly opposed by scripture. I don't understand.
You might enjoy the Hebrew and Greek roots of words at Blue Letter Bible, which is an excellent resource for Bible study. Just go to "Word and Phrase search", and then enter the word you want to look for in the text box, check "show strongs", and then you will be directed to every verse in the Bible with that word or phrase. You will be able to click on each word to view their original meaning in Hebrew or Greek.
You mentioned verses in Proverbs which dealt with wine. My perspective on this is that the Bible only mentions wine as a negative thing, when it deals with intoxication by wine. I believe that intoxication by alcohol is a sin, just as gluttony is a sin. It is abusing God's blessings for us and it is damaging our bodies, which are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
Proverbs 20:1 -
Wineis a mocker, and strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
(I have linked the words to their original meaning, per strongs.)
1 Tim. 5:23-
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
Now, I agree with what you said, that God cannot contradict Himself. Therefore, both statements are true.
If God thinks that fermented wine is evil in and of itself, then I don't think he would recommend that we use a little wine for our stomachs. Not even in small amounts.
On the other hand, we could say that the second verse refers to grape juice, and therefore would not even be referring to fermented wine in the first place.
I checked with the Strongs concordance, and the word "wine" used in 1 Tim. 5:23 must be referring to fermented wine, because the word wine in that verse has the exact same Greek root as the word "wine" in the following verse:
"And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;"
If you can be drunk with it, it has to be fermented.
My thoughts on this are that God does not want us to be intoxicated with wine, however, wine is good for us in small amounts.
Being drunken is a sin, because when wine or any other alcoholic beverage is used to excess, it can harm our bodies, it can alter our minds, it can cause us to sin, etc. This is why when the Bible mentions wine in a negative manner, it describes the way that wine affects us when we are intoxicated.
However, a little wine is very beneficial for our bodies, and can actually improve our health, and I believe it is one of God's blessings for us.
Here is another link that can help explain better than I can:
The Blessing of Wine vs. The Sinfulness of Drunkenness
At the same time though, I do feel a conviction that maybe I should not have publicly posted about the winemaking, because of what Romans 14 says:
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.
20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble.
21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves.
23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
So perhaps I should have just not posted about the wine, if it was to cause a sister in Christ offense. For that, I apologize and I will take the Winemaking category out of my sidebar today.
"Hello, Bethany. I'm new to your blog, and I really enjoyed looking at all the things you're making here! I also enjoy preserving. Good going for your first attempt!!!! I do have a question, though...you mentioned you are making wine. Have you read these verses?
~ Prov. 20:1 ~ "WINE is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
~ PROV. 21:17 "He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth WINE and oil shall not be rich."
~ PROV. 23:30 ~ "They that tarry long at the WINE; they that go to seek mixed WINE."
~ Prov. 23:31 ~ "Look not thou upon the WINE when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright."
~ PROVERBS 31:4 "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink WINE; nor for princes strong drink:"
I know there are other verses referring favorably to wine - Jesus even created wine for the wedding. But God cannot contradict Himself. If you read the original Hebrew and Greek, you will see that there are two different words for wine; wine that refers to strong drink, and wine that refers to anything made with grapes. Grape juice is accepted and even encouraged in the Bible. Strong drink is not. I don't mean to sound annoying or rude. I just see that you very clearly claim to be a believer and love the Lord. I believe you. That is why it puzzles me that you should promote something that is so clearly opposed by scripture. I don't understand.
Before I begin, I want to say that I completely understand where you are coming from, as I have been there before, and I hope that I can help answer your question in a way that will help you understand why I allow wine in our home.
You might enjoy the Hebrew and Greek roots of words at Blue Letter Bible, which is an excellent resource for Bible study. Just go to "Word and Phrase search", and then enter the word you want to look for in the text box, check "show strongs", and then you will be directed to every verse in the Bible with that word or phrase. You will be able to click on each word to view their original meaning in Hebrew or Greek.
You mentioned verses in Proverbs which dealt with wine. My perspective on this is that the Bible only mentions wine as a negative thing, when it deals with intoxication by wine. I believe that intoxication by alcohol is a sin, just as gluttony is a sin. It is abusing God's blessings for us and it is damaging our bodies, which are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
Proverbs 20:1 -
Wineis a mocker, and strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
(I have linked the words to their original meaning, per strongs.)
1 Tim. 5:23-
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
Now, I agree with what you said, that God cannot contradict Himself. Therefore, both statements are true.
If God thinks that fermented wine is evil in and of itself, then I don't think he would recommend that we use a little wine for our stomachs. Not even in small amounts.
On the other hand, we could say that the second verse refers to grape juice, and therefore would not even be referring to fermented wine in the first place.
I checked with the Strongs concordance, and the word "wine" used in 1 Tim. 5:23 must be referring to fermented wine, because the word wine in that verse has the exact same Greek root as the word "wine" in the following verse:
"And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;"
If you can be drunk with it, it has to be fermented.
My thoughts on this are that God does not want us to be intoxicated with wine, however, wine is good for us in small amounts.
Being drunken is a sin, because when wine or any other alcoholic beverage is used to excess, it can harm our bodies, it can alter our minds, it can cause us to sin, etc. This is why when the Bible mentions wine in a negative manner, it describes the way that wine affects us when we are intoxicated.
However, a little wine is very beneficial for our bodies, and can actually improve our health, and I believe it is one of God's blessings for us.
Here is another link that can help explain better than I can:
The Blessing of Wine vs. The Sinfulness of Drunkenness
At the same time though, I do feel a conviction that maybe I should not have publicly posted about the winemaking, because of what Romans 14 says:
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.
20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble.
21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves.
23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
So perhaps I should have just not posted about the wine, if it was to cause a sister in Christ offense. For that, I apologize and I will take the Winemaking category out of my sidebar today.
I agree with the the interpretation that you have provided Bethany only because I have taken years of thought and have devoted years of prayer and study to the subject.
Our actions although not sinful can cause a brother or sister to stumble and if that happens then we have sinned. I have sworn off drinking with or in the presence of anyone who is a non-believer.
An unbeliever may not be able to comprehend how a person could even have wine with becoming intoxicated. Many unbelievers that I know who drink, do so with the specific intent of getting drunk.
I am glad that you have taken the steps to remove the posts from your blog. I have enjoyed learning about wine making and am interested in looking more into the subject.
I am equally appreciative of your commentor for approaching the topic in a respectful manner.
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Hi Bethany -
What an excellent question with an excellent response!
One thought however, if you start removing posts because someone is offended, when will it stop? There are many controversial subjects that you have wrote about and there are some faithful people who may disagree, what then?
I'm asking because look at the great opportunity you and your commenter had to educate us. If you were careful not to have posted about winemaking, we would not have learned. (especially me - I have always been confused on this subject) Sometimes the best opportunities we have to learn and to educate come from controversial ideas.
Just think what would happened if our teachers/ministers/preachers/priests worried about offending the faithful.
I understand why you would want to remove the subject - Perhaps a disclaimer when the discussion comes up?
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You know, I think you did a great job of answering this question.
It's a good thing to remember that not everyone is in the same place in their walk with the Lord.
PS: I've been lurking for a while. My name is Beulah and I really enjoy reading your blog.
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Great post! You did a wonderful job in explaining that! I also agree with what Valerie said, but you should do what the Lord leads you to do.
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I thought that was very well said. I'm disappointed that I won't see the progress on your wine now. I didn't know one could make it on their own - fascinating! I suppose that if you are offending a sister, though, it is best to just leave it out. God bless you!
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As a pastor's wife in the Wesleyan Church, I don't agree with your view on wine. However, I totally look up to you for your loving spirit and selfless attitude in your response. I pray that I can show the same Christlike love and concern for others as you did in this post.
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Green Dragon Sauce
what are you planning on using it for?Like a hot sauce?I am thinking of making this for Dh.He loves hot sauce.
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I grew up in a family where "good Christians never drink alcohol." I'm now married to a frenchman and living in France where ALL Christians (unless they have a problem with alcoholism) drink wine. I can understand why people avoid it, but there's a lot of history that influences these "convictions" we carry. One thing i wanted to point out is that when Paul instructs the early church on communion...he reprimands them for not waiting for everyone to be served before partaking, pointing out that some get drunk while others go hungry. People can't get drunk with grape juice...this means real wine was served as part of the Lord's supper.
This is my first visit to your site (linked off of Tammie's Recipes) and this post caught my attention so i though i'd post...also love your BEAUTIFUL family pictures!
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Bethany,
I would not worry too much about the wine thing. As a catholic christian we drink wine(when not pregnant) and feel as long as we are not drunk or tipsy that it is not a sin. You are a very wise woman with a lot of compassion and love for others. God looks on the heart not always our outward "religious" behaviors. Even the pharisees had the outward signs of doing the "right" thing but Jesus called them hyprocrites. On another note, wish I had your cooking and canning skills. I just don't possess that gift. I love looking at the site though and allowing my mouth to water over your food. Have a blessed day.
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Wow - quite the differences of opinion - even in the follow up comments! I have never seen someone respond to this question with such wisdom and grace...you handled the comment head-on and explained yourself beautifully. God will honor the fact that you didn't just delete the post and avoid the topic, but face it without shame. Good for you!!!
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While I don't drink, (I just don't like the taste of it). I can't say to another Christian what is right or wrong. As long as you are not getting drunk, or drinking while pregnant or nursing (or even trying) can't call it sin.
I would have been interested in seeing the progress too!
Maybe on the chat board?
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Bethany, thanks for the sweet and humble response to the question posed by your commenter.
Fresh fruit juice doesn't last long at all before it starts to ferment. Fresh (unpasteurized) apple cider starts to ferment and is already fizzy tasting after 24 hours! Aside from Scriptural exegesis, I don't even think it would have been possible for people in Biblical times to be ONLY consuming grape juice that was not fermented.
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I grew up in a Christian home, attended Christian school, spent every Sunday at church and believed that a little drink now and then (as an adult over 21) was fine. I knew 1 Corinthians 10:23-33, 2 Corinthians 6:3, and particularly Romans 14, but really believed that as long as I was out alone with my husband, or in my own home...a single drink every now and then was fine for me.
When I was about 27, my husband and I were HS youth leaders in our church and were very active in other ministries. One night, I was having dinner with some of my girlfriends for a girl's night out about an hour away from home. We were ordering our drinks and I started to order a mixed drink, but decided on an iced tea (due to budget concerns) instead. We had a wonderful dinner and as we stood to leave, one of the new teenaged boys to our youth ministry came to bus our table. He remembered me and said "Bye, Miss Lisa...see you Wednesday". That night I decided to never drink another alcoholic drink again. I realized that it doesn't matter where we are, we are a testimony...either good or bad. I never know who may be watching me. If I had ordered that drink, he wouldn't have known whether it was my first drink of the year or the 5th drink of the night. I could have severely damaged my testimony for the LORD without ever really doing anything wrong. The Bible says in 1 Thessalonians 5:22 "Abstain from all APPEARANCE of evil."
It's not that I believe that the drinking of any alcoholic drink is a sin for any Christian. I believe that because I have been convicted in my spirit not to drink, then it would be a sin for me to drink (see Romans 14:19-23).
Sooo, in my desire for holiness (1 Peter 1:16 "for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."), I have decided that abstaining from alcohol was a small price to pay to preserve a good testimony for the Lord.
Please don't hear this as judgemental. Just something to think about.
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I'm confused. Would God or could God have used you any less had you had a cocktail on the table? I've volunteered in ministry with kids for years, and never once has drinking a beer or glass of wine interrupted in what Jesus wanted to do through me.
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Actually yes. My mother who has had a relationship with the Lord for 2 years now, was an addict for 30 years. She went to a picnic once and a man there was trying to witness to her. At one point he went to get a drink and came back with a beer. She said she became confused (because she couldnt see Jesus doing that) and politely excused herself. She even called and asked me why a christian would do that. Also my step mom and dad were out to dinner one night with another christian couple and ordered one glass of wine each. A few weeks later after no communitcation, my mom called and asked what was wrong and the lady told her (because my mom is in so many minitries) that it made them confused and unconfortable. Personally, i dont drink because I dont like the taste, so I dont mind seeing others do it, but we need to remember other people and the apperance we are giving them. As christian, no we should not judge, but non christians dont have those standards and beliefs. And Bethany, I admire how you have handeled this whole topic-such grace!
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Bethany,
What a gracious response to what I found to be a very abrupt, offensive question posed in a legalistic manner.
You are obviously one who loves Jesus. He is not just about moral behavior and Christians who make him about that have some issues and it's time we start, as a body, being clear about that.
Your wine post was lovely and so are you. Please don't edit yourself even though I think it is wonderful and loving that you'd even consider it.
Diane
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Hadias, Beulah, Jessica, Katie, Shelly, Tia, Tammy, thank you so much for the kind words.
Valerie, Betsy, that is a really good idea. I appreciate your comments.
Rachel, feel free to email me anytime with any questions you have, and I'll be more than happy to help!
Linda, that really means a lot, thank you so much!!
Mrs. PAradis, I sent you an email
Lisa, I understand what you mean, and didn't hear it as judgemental. Thanks for your comments
Diane, thank you for the nice things you said. I appreciate it.
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Bethany,
You have been a modest and humble blogger whose adventures have been inspiring and entertaining. I admire your courtesy and forbearance toward the rude and self-righteous commenter. Tammy is absolutely right that it would have been impossible to only drink grape juice in pre-refrigeration days of yore. Fruit fermentation helped preserve excess produce and provided potable beverage, especially when the water wasn't drinkable. Being Christ-like requires us to be moderate in our habits, and not wasteful of God's bounty.
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That is really interesting, Lily. Thank you for your comments!
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Dear Lily,
I honestly didn't mean to sound rude and self-righteous. I was asking a question. I'm sure you have discovered the difficulties, yourself, of conveying tone and meaning through print. Have you ever sent an email that someone took entirely the wrong way? Doesn't it make you feel awful when the person replies with anger and dislike?
It grieves me to see that many of you saw my comment as rude. I pray Bethany didn't. I really appreciate the way she responded. I'd like to be a friend here, not an enemy. I still believe the same way, but I just want my attitude to be right. Do you know what I mean? I want peace between me and my sisters in Christ. Please understand.
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I agree with your post completely. My mother-in-law is a Catholic nun and all the sisters have a glass of red wine with dinner on Sundays. Nothing in excess, but an occasional glass is considered just fine.
Love your blog!
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Dear Bethany,
Thank you for responding to my question in such a gracious manner. I was praying as I posted it that it would not come across as rude, abrupt, or legalistic. I truly did not mean it that way - but it can be so hard to convey attitudes and tones of voices in print! Apparently I offend some of your readers by the way I said it, and I apologize for that.
I do agree with what you wrote about 1 Tim. 5:23. Wine was used medicinally. I can't argue with scripture.
It's just that so many people start small and go from there. So many parents who drink in moderation have children who drink in excess. Where can the line be drawn? I feel like it's playing with fire.
That being said, I also believe in freedom of conscience.
I commend you for an excellent spirit, and I thank you for your answer to my question.
Love in Christ,
Amber
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I completely understand...it is very difficult to express things like that on the internet without someone misunderstanding. I think that you, and everyone else here has meant well in their comments, and I do appreciate them. Thanks so much for letting me know you've seen my response, and that you understand where I'm coming from. I hope you have a blessed week!
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